为什么印度还在用米格21执行作战任务？

【来源龙腾网】

正文原创翻译：

As of this morning, Pakistan is reporting that it has shot down Indian fighter jets operating over Pakistan. It looks like the specific types shot down were Mig-21s. This is surprising to me, given that the airfrx is over 50 years old. Unlike, say, the USAF and the B-52, it seems like India has plenty of other planes that can fulfill the same role as the Mig 21 - it has Mirage 2000s, Su-30s, Mig-29s, and more. So why was it using Mig 21s for active combat operations?

今天早上，巴基斯坦报道称击落了在巴基斯坦上空飞行的印度战机。看起来被击落的是米格-21。这让我很惊讶，因为这种飞机的机龄已经超过50年了。虽然不如美国空军和B-52，印度似乎有很多其他飞机可以发挥与米格21同样的作用——它有幻影2000、苏-30、米格29等等。那么为什么要用米格21来执行主动作战任务呢？

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原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：碧波荡漾恒河水 转载请注明出处

WIlf_Brim

A good question, though. This is their most active and most contested front: I would have thought that they would use the Mig-29 in Kashmir, and put the less capable airfrxs in the East where the threat is less.

不错的问题。这是他们最活跃、战斗最激烈的前线：我原以为他们会在克什米尔使用米格-29，而把能力较差的机身放在威胁较小的东部。

Diestormlie

The reason I could think is that, given the risk of them being shot down, they used less capable airfrxs so, if they were shot down, they''d have lost less.

我能想到的原因是，考虑到他们被击落的风险，他们使用了性能较差的飞机，所以如果被击落，损失会比较少。

KilrBe3

That point why risk even an airworthy air frx? They have drones, but I think they are all SIGNIT and Recce. This is where a standoff missile would come in great hands here. Even throwing away a an aging airfrx to me is stupid. If it flies, and carry drop a payload, its still worthy... This is how a side loses by thinking like this... Oh its old, chuck it away. Looking at you Syria AF.

Guess in this case though, you use what ya got.

那让一架性能良好的飞机冒险有什么意义呢？他们有无人机，我认为都可以用于侦查。在这种情况下，从防区外发射一枚导弹就能取得优势。我觉得丢掉一架老旧的飞机根本就是愚蠢的做法。如果它能飞，并且能投掷载荷，它就依然是有价值的……如果哪一方这样想就输定了：“哦，这架飞机太旧了，丢掉好了。”叙利亚空军都没有这样呢。

但是在这种情况下，手上有什么就用什么。

Diestormlie

You fight with the equipment you have, not with the equipment you wish you had.

Of course, they may have wanted Pakistan to shoot them down, if they''re looking to escalate.

打仗时，手头有什么装备就用什么，理想的装备不一定在手头上。

当然，如果他们想让事情升级的话，他们或许会故意让巴基斯坦把这些飞机击落。

Wireless-Wizard

That kind of conjecture is outside the scope of this sub.

这种推测超出了讨论范围。

Diestormlie

My mistake.

我的错。

vzenov

First of all India has twice as many MiG-21s as MiG-29s and had even more in the past which means that more aircraft will be ready for combat. The fighting took place over some time so multiple sorties would be made.

Also when the attack was made a much greater number of aircraft was put in the air to draw attention and confuse Pakistani Air Force. If you want to draw enemy forces away from the region you want to attack you want to signal as many threatening assets as you can in another area. Possibly MiG-29s would be used somewhere else.

Contrary to what you might think upgraded MiG-21 Bison is in many aspects as good or even better than MiG-29 in Indian service. For example the EW system gives it an advantage over MiG-29 which uses standard systems.

首先，印度的米格-21数量是米格-29的两倍，过去甚至更多，这意味着做好战斗准备的米格-21会更多。战斗持续了一段时间，所以出动了多批次的飞机。

当袭击发生时，为了吸引巴基斯坦空军的注意力并加以迷惑，印度把更多的飞机投放到空中。如果想要把敌人从他们想要攻击的地区引开，他们会在另一个地区发出尽可能多的威胁信号。米格-29可能会被用在其他地方。

与你所想的相反，升级后的米格-21野牛在许多方面都比米格-29更好。例如，它的电子战系统比使用标准系统的米格-29更有优势。

barath_s

Mig 21s are short range point defence interceptors, so you use them near the border.

Sukhois have longer legs and can be hosted in other places.

This Mig 21 flew from Srinagar AFB,Kashmir.

米格21是短程点防御拦截机，所以可以用在边境附近。

苏霍伊的腿比较长，可以驻扎在其他地方。

这架米格-21是从克什米尔的斯利那加空军基地起飞的。

DegnarOskold

The Mig-21 was always a very good airplane and the Mig-21 Bison variant that India flies has heavily upgraded electronics to bring it up to modern standards.

The Mig-21 is still a high-performance plane with comparable speed, climbing and maneuvering capability to many more modern jets.

米格-21一直是一架非常好的飞机，印度使用的米格-21野牛型已经大幅升级电子设备，达到了现代标准。

米格-21仍然是一种高性能飞机，其速度、爬升和机动能力与许多现代喷气式飞机相当。

SirWinstonC

that India flies has heavily upgraded electronics to bring it up to modern standards.

an overstatement, especially the modern standards

夸大其词，尤其是与“现代标准”相比。

Bernard_Woolley

The upgrade contract was signed in 1994. It was quite modern for its time.

升级合同于1994年签订。它在当时是相当“现代”的。

SirWinstonC

Year (time) is literally the worst indicator of tech modernity for military

Soviets put in mig29 and su27 into service in the late 80s

Claimed it’s avionics suit had the same performance as f-15 and f-16 (planes put into service in early 70s)

But the level of technology it utilized was similar to that of f-4 phantom II - from the 60s (re: avionics)

Timeline of service entry literally has no implication for actual modernity, depends on who is making it (among other things)

年代（时间）实际上是军事技术现代化最糟糕的指标。

苏联的米格29和苏27于上世纪80年代末服役。

当时声称它们的航电套装具备F-15和F-16（它们是70年代早期服役的）相同的性能。

但它采用（的航电设备）的技术水平类似于F-4幽灵II。

实际上，服役时间并不代表是否现代化，这要看是谁制造的（以及其他方面）。

lordderplythethird

MiG-21BIS are a cheap and modern enough fighter in India''s eyes, though they''re slowly being phased out for Tejas fighters.

To be fair though, roughly half of the Pakistan Air Force is comprised of J-7s and Mirage IIIs, which are more or less direct comparables to the MiG-21 (in the case of the J-7, a literal copy of it). As long as Pakistan is still heavily reliant on them for the base of their fighter fleet, there''s no immediate need in India to retire and replace them.

Honestly, I would suspect the IAF has more of their modern fighters pointed towards China rather than Pakistan, given China''s rapid modernization vs Pakistan''s inability to modernize.

米格- 21野牛在印度看来是一款足够便宜和现代化的战机，尽管它们正慢慢被光辉战机淘汰。

公平地说，大约一半的巴基斯坦空军是由J-7和幻影III组成的，它们或多或少与米格-21有直接的可比性(至于J-7，它是米格-21的一种山寨版)。只要巴基斯坦仍然严重依赖这些战机，将其作为其战斗机编队的基础，印度就不需要立即让米格21退休并换掉它们。

老实说，我怀疑印度空军把他们更多的现代战机瞄准中国，而不是巴基斯坦，因为中国正在迅速实现现代化，而巴基斯坦则无力实现。

Bernard_Woolley

Honestly, I would suspect the IAF has more of their modern fighters pointed towards China rather than Pakistan

The IAF currently has two Mirage-2000 squadrons stationed at Gwalior in central India, and several squadrons of Su-30MKIs facing Pakistan. Bhatinda, Halwara, Jodhpur, and Bhuj currently house MKI squadrons.

印度空军目前有两个幻影2000中队驻扎在印度中部的瓜廖尔，还有几个苏-30mki中队面向巴基斯坦。珀丁达、海瓦拉、焦特布尔和普杰目前驻扎着MKI中队。

Commisar

The Tejas has been an absolute disaster and won''t being to actually replace the Mig-21 until 2025

光辉战机绝对是一场灾难，在2025年前不可能真正取代米格21。

generalissimo_jones

Plus India has a serious numerical advantage in both military hardware and population against Pakistan. It''s not like they can''t replace pilots and planes if they had too.

另外，印度在军事装备和人口上都比巴基斯坦有很大的优势。并不是说他们不能换掉飞行员和飞机——如果他们必须这样做的话。

PanzerKommander

There are two major reasons, that I see:

MiG 21''s are still very capable ground attack aircraft, they are also much cheaper and easier to replace than the other aircraft (they were flying into an area where the enemy has acceptable Air Defense so there was a chance that anything would be lost).

The MiG 21 isn''t much slower or less maneuverable than the planes you listed (they were designed and built only 20 years after the MiG 21). The biggest disadvantage a MiG 21 had was it''s lack of room for electronics/radar/etc because of its small frx (it was made when the Soviet Air Defense Doctrine relied on ground based controller to guide the plane to it''s targets). But with new upgrade packages using modern miniaturized components those weaknesses are much less pronounced.

TL;DR: The MiG 21 works just fine today as long as you''re not planning on fighting the USA, Russia, China, or EU.

我认为有两个主要原因:

米格21仍然是非常有能力的地面攻击机，它们也比其他飞机更便宜，更容易更换(敌人在它们飞往的那个地区部署了说得过去的防空力量，所以任何飞机都有可能损失掉)。

米格21并不比你列出的那些飞机慢多少，机动性也不差多少(它们的设计和制造比米格21晚了20年)。米格21最大的缺点是由于它的机身小(当时苏联的防空理论是由地面控制来引导飞机飞往目标，它就是那时候制造的)，而缺乏容纳电子/雷达/等装备的空间。但随着使用现代微型化组件的新升级包的出现，这些弱点就不那么明显了。

只要不是打算对抗美国、俄罗斯、中国或欧盟，米格21在今天还是可以正常工作的。

DhulKarnain

Hell, if you''re planning on fighting the EU, you could very well come up against the MiG-21 (still operational in Romania and Croatia).

该死，如果有人计划与欧盟作战，也会遭遇到米格21（它们依然在罗马尼亚和克罗地亚服役）。

PanzerKommander

True, but I''d be more worried about German or French planes

没错，但我更担心德国或法国的飞机。

DhulKarnain

Sure, but I''ve read an interview with an F-15 pilot on Hushkit and he was wary of dismissing the MiG-21 as a threat even against the ultimate air superiority fighter such as the F-15C.

"These days potential enemy fighters are as large or larger than the F-16, and perhaps size isn’t the issue it once was. In my day the primary threat we trained against was the MiG-21. He could see us at a distance of ten or more miles; we couldn’t see him until five miles or less, and that could make all the difference in who gets to the merge unobserved with a huge initial advantage.”

and

"If MiG-21s were half as good as F-5s, we’d have had our hands full had the Warsaw Pact ever moved on NATO."

I''d say that upgraded late MiG-21 models like the Indian Bison, the Romanian Lancer or various other Israeli upgraded MiG-21s, surpass anything the F-5 could ever do.

当然，我读到过一篇对Hushkit的一名F-15飞行员所做的采访，他对不把米格21当做威胁的说法持谨慎态度，即使对于F-15C这样的终极空中优势战斗机也是如此。

“现在潜在敌人的战斗机都与F-16一样大，或者更大，而且也许飞机的大小不再像以前那样是个问题。在我的时代，我们训练的主要威胁是米格-21。它可以在十英里或更远的地方看到我们；而我们必须在五英里或更短的距离内才能看到它，而哪一方能够不被发现的进入交战，从中获得巨大的初始优势，就可能改变一切。”

PanzerKommander

True, and I wasn''t dismissing them either, but the day of the dog fight is long gone. Today you don''t see your enemy with your eyes, you do with your electronics.

Which probably makes the 21 even more comparable to newer planes...

确实，我也不否认这种威胁，但狗斗的时代早已过去。今天飞行员不会用肉眼看到敌人，而是用航电设备。

这可能使米格21面对新机型时更有可比性……

tubbyttub9

I''m sure if a Japanese, Israeli or American F-15c pilot was ask if they''d rather a MiG-21 for combat I''m pretty sure I know what the answer would be.

我敢肯定，如果去问日本、以色列或者美国的F-15c飞行员，他们是否愿意驾驶MiG-21作战，我很肯定他们的回答是什么。

mbrasher1

Indian AF purchased a large number of Mig 21s. It was THE workhorse for decades, including during when current senior officers were flying. Over 500 pilots have been killed from Mig21 crashes.

The why is a combination of budgets and inertia. The Indian AF would like more modern airfrxs but money is always tight. They seem to be taking the approach of letting attrition take its toll. Just a bit less than 1000 were purchased or built under license; over half have crashed. The pilots call it the widow maker or flying coffin.

印度空军购买了大量的米格21。这曾是他们几十年来的主力，包括在现任高级官员飞行期间。有超过500名飞行员在米格21坠毁事件中丧生。

预算和惯性共同导致了现在这种情况。印度空军希望得到更多现代化飞机，但他们的钱包总是很紧张。他们似乎采用了放任自然消耗的做法。他们采购或者根据许可建造了差不多1000架这种飞机；然而超过一半已经坠毁了。所以飞行员们称之为寡妇制造者或者飞行棺材。